IndieHosters Chosen Values. What are the values that guide our action?

#1

For the sake of alignment between all members of the team, and in order to build trust, it is relevant for us to chose the values that guide our daily action. In this way, whenever we are alone and need to make a decision, we can always relate to the values as guides.
The values are good as a whole, so please, read them as complementary to each other.

Here are the ones we identified:

Freedom: Everyone shall be free to use their data and software as they which.
Common Good: In every action we go into, we look forward to bring value to the entire Earth Ecossystem as a whole, as far as our awareness allows.
Privacy: The data belongs to the person or group of people who are represented by it. IndieHosters works for your data to be safe and won’t use it for any means to which you don’t explicitly consent to.

Do feel free to reply to this post by asking any questions or posting anything you find relevant by reading it.

#2

These are good values for an organisation to have. What obligations result from these values?

To what extent should we prefer that organisations, with which IndieHoster works, to also demonstrate these values?

For example, using Google APIs feeds usage data of IndieHosters through Google; and Google does not demonstrate these values. How much should that matter?

Using credit cards for international payment also requires IndieHosters customers to contribute to many organisations that do not demonstrate these values. What does this set of values mean for IndieHosters in relation to that?

How much should these values motivate IndieHosters to:

  • Make it easy to opt out of using Google APIs? To pay using a cryptocurrency?
  • Make it the default to not use Google APIs? To present invoices in Bitcoin?
  • Not even offer Google APIs?

Maybe the line is drawn somewhere else along that spectrum. I would think, though, that to express a set of values would mean that would inform discussions about the concrete decisions of drawing that line.

#3

Where do we use GoogleAPI?

For money, we accept paypal, stripe or bank transfer (and manually cash, bitcoin or ether).

#4

Can you address the multiple questions about values and obligations?

The specific examples are not calls to action, they are for giving a focus to discuss values, as opened in the first post.

#5

@bignose it would be complicated and lenghty (and I’m not sure it will bring any value) to discuss about broad things such as values and obligations.

Hosting business is a specific business.
We try to be as open as good as we can, but you can always question things until you have root access to the server.
And we’ll not give root access to anyone, mainly to respect our values.

Our business rely on trust. If you trust us, great, if you don’t then, there is no way we can prove you we have good values. (But if we betray our users, we loose our entire business, so… this is your guaranty).
If you don’t trust us, find somebody you trust more, or do it yourself.

Then if you have specific question about specific topic, we are open to discussion, and really willing to take decision together. For instance, our billing system uses by default paypal and stripe, is it good or bad, this can be discussed (we also allow bank transfer and crypto). Open a new thread if you want to further discuss specific topic.

#6

Is this not, then, a thread to discuss the chosen values of IndieHosters, that guide your action? That is exactly what I took the opening message of this thread to be, and I replied to discuss.

Another option is to discuss what is meant by those values; perhaps even at length, to satisfy your customers what you mean by those values and what actions they would guide you to.

#7

Please don’t take me wrong, I’d love to have lengthy discussions, but time is a really scarce resource.

As time is scarce, for now, the project is a kind of do-ocracy. People doing things decide for the rest.
I’m not saying it is the best, but given the limited resources of the project it is what works until now.

Now, if you want to discuss how to draw the line between using paypal or not, I agree it is a fair discussion, and we can have it. Ultimately, we would need all users to vote on such a topic. Do I have time to organize this? I’m afraid not.
If you want to help make it happen, please feel free.
And seriously, I’d love to have time to organize the tools to have such discussions. And the time to contribute to it.

If you believe that we should accept crypto more easily, I do agree with you.

Then how to make it happen?
We need to fix this issue:


It is not my personal priority at the moment, but if you believe it is, then please fix it. Or convince/hire somebody to fix it.

My personal priority is to keep the system clean, running, secure with backups that work.
@unteem priority is making sure users are happy and served, finding new users and ldap integration between cloud and email.

I’m afraid that my answer will not meet your expectations, it is difficult to discuss on a forum, would you like to schedule a visio?

#8

From where I see it @pierreozoux was apparently annoyed by @bignose’s reply, as he is working hard to promote free software and all of the values here described and as he said, he right now needs more people to help out with already identified technical tasks. @pierreozoux am i anywhere close?

@bignose have you read https://forum.indie.host/t/indiehosters-driver-what-drives-us-as-a-collective-at-indiehosters/256 ? Would you care answering the questions written there?
Values are ultimately part of a strategy to attend to this driver actually and really are open to dialogue. Preferably without judgement.

@bignose I start by referring to the title part that says: “guide our action”.
There are situations where the line is hard to define, as you have already mentioned.

For example, using Google APIs feeds usage data of IndieHosters through Google; and Google does not demonstrate these values. How much should that matter?

I’m aware that I can login to IndieHosters using Google account - was this @bignose what you were referring to ?

These are good values for an organisation to have. What obligations result from these values?

What do you understand by obligations?

To what extent should we prefer that organisations, with which IndieHoster works, to also demonstrate these values?

Good question. On a first answer I would say of course, we prefer organizations that strictly follow the same values as Indiehosters. That doesn’t necessarily mean that all other organizations don’t comply to some extent to the values also. I would say that if you find an organization that doesn’t comply with any values whatsoever in most of the circumstances, then I say - probably we should not work with them.

Yet lays the question: Imagine you are a vegan climate activist. You have the opportunity to contribute to lessen the climate impact of an animal industrial farm, and you know how to do it. How would you cope with it?

Using credit cards for international payment also requires IndieHosters customers to contribute to many organisations that do not demonstrate these values. What does this set of values mean for IndieHosters in relation to that?

Would you say that these organizations and the people working there do not never comply with these values? Would you have the time to hire someone or work on specific issues regarding to this, as @pierre mentioned?

Another option is to discuss what is meant by those values; perhaps even at length, to satisfy your customers what you mean by those values and what actions they would guide you to.

Could you be more concrete by saying in which way the definition of the values could be more detailed so that IndieHosters better achieves the full satisfaction of its driver (check https://forum.indie.host/t/indiehosters-driver-what-drives-us-as-a-collective-at-indiehosters/256)
?
@pierreozoux, are you ok with me handling this as part of the team?